I like it when my readers engage in conversation about the posts I publish here. Sometimes I am questioned in the comments box, and sometimes readers prefer to write me privately by e-mail; in which case I respond privately.
Yesterday, JoeH asked an interesting question. He said: "So, is it either Heaven or Hell? Punishment is not commensurate with the sin?"
This train of thought has been debated amongst theologians and intellectuals for years. If someone dies with small sins, like me, having a penchant for chocolates and being a little too greedy. Does that mean going down fast without a parachute? No redemption or forgiveness?
Enter the Catholics with their invention.
PURGATORY.
Many Catholics and non-Catholics have wondered about Purgatory. Does it
exist? There's no mention of it in the Bible. Is it just a Catholic
invention to make money by asking people to pay for prayers and Masses
to be celebrated for the repose of dead family members and friends?
How long do souls stay in Purgatory? Is it a day for every venial sin? A week? A month? Longer?
How many days off do they gain when we pray for these souls or celebrate Mass for them?
What does Purgatory look like? Does it have a fire like hell? Is it hot or cold there? Or is it perhaps just warm so you feel uncomfortable but you don’t burn?
Does it have devils looking after all the inmates; like in hell, or are they a little kinder perhaps?
Are we in pain when in Purgatory? Like the fire in hell?
The notion that Purgatory is some sort of Purification Centre or Car Wash where all souls with venial sins go to be made clean before entering Heaven has long vexed many wise minds.
The Catholic Church bases its teaching from Scripture. In Revelation Chapter 21 Verse 27 it says ‘Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.’ So, strictly speaking, if we die with venial sins on our conscience we’re not spiritually cleaned; and that’s why we go to Purgatory.
The belief in the existence of Purgatory goes back to the early Christians; and other Christian denominations also believe in such a place where souls go before they are ready to enter Heaven.
Given that very few of us will die with no sins whatsoever on our conscience, the Church teaches that there must exist a place, or a state of being, or a state of purification, where we are cleansed of our sins and we can enter Heaven. This place, or state of being, is known as Purgatory.
Jesus did describe Heaven at one time as a mansion with many rooms. So it follows, perhaps, that in our imagination we visualize Purgatory as a physical place too.
The pertinent point, however, is that the Church teaches that there is a stage where souls destined for Heaven undergo a period of purification.
So, as you can see, even Catholics had their different views and disagreements about Purgatory.
May I add that when Jesus was hanging on the Cross He turned to Dismas, the Repentant Thief and said, "I promise you this very day you will be with me in Paradise!"
How long do souls stay in Purgatory? Is it a day for every venial sin? A week? A month? Longer?
How many days off do they gain when we pray for these souls or celebrate Mass for them?
What does Purgatory look like? Does it have a fire like hell? Is it hot or cold there? Or is it perhaps just warm so you feel uncomfortable but you don’t burn?
Does it have devils looking after all the inmates; like in hell, or are they a little kinder perhaps?
Are we in pain when in Purgatory? Like the fire in hell?
The notion that Purgatory is some sort of Purification Centre or Car Wash where all souls with venial sins go to be made clean before entering Heaven has long vexed many wise minds.
The Catholic Church bases its teaching from Scripture. In Revelation Chapter 21 Verse 27 it says ‘Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.’ So, strictly speaking, if we die with venial sins on our conscience we’re not spiritually cleaned; and that’s why we go to Purgatory.
The belief in the existence of Purgatory goes back to the early Christians; and other Christian denominations also believe in such a place where souls go before they are ready to enter Heaven.
Given that very few of us will die with no sins whatsoever on our conscience, the Church teaches that there must exist a place, or a state of being, or a state of purification, where we are cleansed of our sins and we can enter Heaven. This place, or state of being, is known as Purgatory.
Jesus did describe Heaven at one time as a mansion with many rooms. So it follows, perhaps, that in our imagination we visualize Purgatory as a physical place too.
The pertinent point, however, is that the Church teaches that there is a stage where souls destined for Heaven undergo a period of purification.
St.
Therese of Lisieux, who is a doctor of the church, has her
own view of Purgatory. She maintains that one does not need
to go to Purgatory. While still only a novice, she spoke
to Sister Maria Philomena, who believed in the near
impossibility of going to Heaven without passing through
Purgatory.
Therese’s response was, “You do not have enough
trust. You have too much fear before the good God. I can
assure you that He is grieved over this. You should not
fear Purgatory because of the suffering there, but should
instead ask God to take you straight to Heaven. As soon as
you try to please Him in everything and have an unshakable
trust He purifies you every moment in His love and He lets
no sin remain. It is then you can be sure that you will not
have to go to Purgatory.”
May I add that when Jesus was hanging on the Cross He turned to Dismas, the Repentant Thief and said, "I promise you this very day you will be with me in Paradise!"
He didn't say, "But you'll have to spend some time in Purgatory first!"
I don't know if this answers JoeH's or your questions. Does Purgatory exist? Do people with minor sins go straight to hell? Or do they go somewhere to be made clean first before entering Heaven? Is it either Heaven or hell. Or is punishment, (if punishment it is), not commensurate with the sin?"
Being a non-Catholic I do not believe in Purgatory. After reading this, I'm not sure what you believe. You call it an Invention.
ReplyDeleteGood question Bill. But let me ask you one first.
DeleteHow would you answer JoeH? Given we're all likely to die with small sins on our conscience is it straight to hell for most/all of us?
Now my answer. In all honesty, I do not know whether to believe in Purgatory or not. I call it "invention" because that is what it was called by non-Catholics believing it was a trick by the Church to earn money from people paying for prayers for their loved deceased ones.
But to answer JoeH. I believe that God will see fit at our death to somehow cleanse our souls of small (non-mortal)sins. Whether this is as a period in Purgatory, or a certain state of cleansing as decreed by God, I do not know. For the sake of identification, let's call it Purgatory. And I hasten to add, I do not know how long souls have to stay there, (or in that statis), before God considers them cleansed.
I hope this clarifies my position, Bill. On this side of death, we can all guess or conjecture what's on the other side.
God bless.
I was raised Catholic, Victor, and was taught that Purgatory existed. I do not believe that anymore. True, the Bible says that nothing impure will enter the heavenly city of New Jerusalem, but that is only a portion of the verse. Revelation 21:27 finishes with "only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life" will enter. How to we get our names written into the Book? We sincerely repent of sin and believe that Jesus is our Savior. Our names remain in the Book forever. This is God's gift & promise; that's why Jesus died for us & rose from the dead. Ephesians says it is by His grace that we are saved, not by our good works. I trust what the Bible says; that Jesus completely saved us, that he suffered for us, that His sacrifice was sufficient - payment in FULL for our sins. I would not hold on to the promise of purgatory. I will hold on to the promise of Jesus & what is written in the His Word to us. Yes, Christians sin, but Christians know to confess our sins to God & to ask for forgiveness. Sin breaks our fellowship with God, but will not negate God's promise to us. We stand in the righteousness of Jesus, not in our own righteousness. So even if we die with a sin, God will accept us because we belong to Him; nothing can separate us from Him. We are free from fear. Our salvation comes from trusting in Jesus, not from our own righteousness and not from spending time in purgatory. That's what I believe:)
ReplyDeleteYou make some good points, Chris. Before replying, let me explain that I have no authority whatsoever in the Catholic Church. I am not a priest, a deacon or anything else, apart from being a parishioner.
DeleteLike you, I am not sure what to believe about Purgatory. See my comment to Bill above.
I also believe that God invites us all to Heaven and that Christ died for our sins. There's nothing we can do to buy our way into Heaven. No amount of money given to charity, candles lit, flowers placed by statues, or prayers said will guarantee our entry to Heaven.
However, I also believe that sin - our sin - can prevent us from entering Heaven. I doubt that a thieving murderer who cheats on his wife and who denied the existence of God will be welcomed in Heaven with open arms. To do so, would be unjust and unfair to all others who have lived a life following the Word of God.
What I am trying to say here is that, whilst we are all welcome in Heaven, our actions on earth in this life can prevent us such entry if such is our will by our behaviour.
There then follows the question of those, (perhaps most of us), who die with minor sins on our conscience. By that I mean perhaps gluttony, laziness, etc... I doubt that God would judge them on the same scale as the murdering thief mentioned before. Somehow, I believe, they will be forgiven and will be welcomed as faithful, albeit found a little wanting, servants. (I think I got the quote mostly right).
Whether they spend a period in the (non-existant) Purgatory or not, I do not know. I believe that somehow God will forgive such minor sins and welcome them in Heaven.
God bless, Chris.
I agree with you Chris and you said it better than I could have. :)
DeleteThanx Happyone.
DeleteGod bless.
Victor, I don't believe God allows people into heaven based on judgement of major or minor sins. I believe people are allowed into heaven by grace only, not by works or actions; that the only scale God uses is whether or not they have sincerely accepted Jesus. If someone thinks he can live a sinful life with wild abandon (murder, thieve & cheat) and then assume God will forgive him on his deathbed, well then he's gonna have a problem. He never let Jesus into his heart in the first place; a Christian would never live like that. But yes, we do sin, we all fall short. I don't want to face God ashamed or embarrassed and having a personal relationship with Him helps keep me on the straight & narrow - most of the time:)
DeleteWe agree, Brother, that Jesus is the way, and that there is a right course to our final destination. That is the most important thing. I love you, Victor. God bless you.
Thank you for a wonderful response Chris. I agree, we should live our lives close to Christ every day, for in doing so we would not wander away from God and behave badly.
DeleteThis reminds me of a favourite saying from Father Francis Maple:
"I think of a life as a tree. If a tree leans in one direction when it dies it will fall in that direction. It is not going to fall in the opposite direction. So, too, with our lives. If all the time we are leaning towards God, very likely, with God's grace we shall fall into His arms when we die. But if our lives never point to God, it is very likely that when we die we shall die in enmity with God."
So, as you rightly say, we need to accept Jesus and have a daily personal relationship with Him.
God bless you always, Chris.
Interesting! A life-long Protestant, I've never given Purgatory much consideration. Rather, that it might exist in the same manner flights are held in exasperating holding patterns over busy airports. Thanks for the link to Fr. Francis' homily!
ReplyDeleteI think you got it right, Mevely. Bravo. Purgatory is when our flight into Heaven is delayed for a while and the air-plane is circling the sky awaiting our turn to land at Paradise Airport.
DeleteFr Francis publishes a different sermon every day on his website.
God bless, Mevely.
There are so many interpretations that I never really thought about it. It seems like a big building and as you enter you pull a number that states how long you get to stay. Who knows, I certainly don't. I'll leave it to God to figure it out and just be concerned about iving life as best I can.
ReplyDeleteAs always, a very wise comment, Bill. We certainly don't know but it's best left to God to decide.
DeleteGod bless always.
My son once was caught stealing. Lucky for him he was not yet 18. We appeared before a board of judges? They asked me what I was going to do to punish him. My son had always been and still is an honest young man with good values. He was led astray partly by a friend. When he was caught he was so ashamed and I let him know how disappointing I was and how lucky he was that if was only a few weeks more he would have been 18 and lost his entry to college.
ReplyDeleteI told this group of judges(?) I was doing nothing, I think my sincere disappointment was punishment enough. He went on to college now is married with 2 children and is a pillar of his community. We has never ever spoken of this since. I would like to think that God would know what and if additional punishment beyond HIS disappointment might be.
Thank you for you answer, always interesting.
Thank you for your brilliant comment and the way you handled the situation, JoeH.
DeleteI believe God will treat us the same way as you describe. He knows whether our sin, (as serious as stealing which is mentioned in the Ten Commandments), was a sin of deliberate, well thought out and planned evil; or just a moment of madness when we were not thinking straight.
Mortal sin is when the individual knows what he is doing is wrong, he knows it is a serious sin, yet willingly and without coercion from anyone else he does the evil deed all the same. The action is a free will action in the full knowledge that it is seriously wrong.
God knows what is in the sinner's heart. We are all sinners. He knows whether we sin because we deliberately not care of the harm we do to others by our sins; or whether we sin out of sheer stupidity or non-thinking. So He will treat and judge each sin differently, even though it may be the same sin - e.g. stealing. For example, someone stealing in desperation to feed his starving son as opposed to someone stealing from a bank with a well planned plan of action.
Thanx JoeH for a good discussion on this subject.
God bless you and your family always.
I love the words St. Therese spoke so many years ago, and I really feel the way she did then. I believe Jesus is all we need to cleanse and purify us when we turn to Him (sometimes hour by hour and day by day) and ask His forgiveness and help in not repeating a sin.
ReplyDeleteGreat reflection!
Blessings, Victor!
You're right, Martha. We don't need time in Purgatory if day by day, hour by hour, we walk close to Jesus and ask for His forgiveness and help. Well said, my good friend.
DeleteThank you and God bless.
Even after all these years as a practicing Catholic I am still confounded by the prospect of Purgatory. That being said it doesn't deter me from knowing that God is control whatever the case. Thank you for this post! It was most interesting!
ReplyDeleteI join you in being confused too about Purgatory, Cathy. Our Church has much to answer for in creating confusion by its teachings rather than help people understand and lead a better life.
DeleteYes, God is in control. Not our Church or any church.
God bless.
You are a master at handling sticky topics with such grace, wisdom and humor. I personally don't see anything is Scripture for purgatory, but think Paul said it also...to be absent from the body is to present with God. My sins past, present and future were all paid for at the Cross...no need for purgatory...but a great need to live our lives daily as David in confession and praise. Good post. Need to back up and read some I've missed. Take care and Blessings Brother.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I understand, Wanda. All future sins have been paid for at the Cross. Can I now be as bad as I want and I'm guaranteed a place in Heaven?
DeleteYes, Christ died to redeem us, to give us a new chance to seek forgiveness and to repent. Not as a free get out of jail card.
It's good to see you visiting here again. We missed you.
God bless.
There is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Hebrews. If you now feel that you can be as bad as you want....You don't know my Jesus. We sin, hopefully not as a habit, but when we do we confess...that sin was already paid for. But that's how I read the scripture. I'm glad we can agree to disagree...love you! Love freedom!
DeleteI don't think we disagree here, Wanda. In fact we agree very much. If we are daily close to Jesus then we would not want to sin, would we?
DeleteGod bless always.
Fascinating discussions here.
ReplyDeleteIt comes down to a great deal of theology that i simply do not know enough to discuss. Brother-in-Law, who adores systematic theology, would start taking about imputation of righteousness and sanctification and a bunch of other fifty-cent words.
And i just start humming the song Jesus Loves Me, and try to do the best i can.
That's a good attitude, Mimi. I'd join you in humming that song.
DeleteGod bless you and yours.
I guess I've always thought that since I'm human (not perfect) I would spend some time in Purgatory. Hopefully not too long, though.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if they have a coffee bar in Purgatory.
DeleteGod bless, Kathy.
Coffee would be good.
DeleteMakes the waiting easier, I'd guess.
DeleteGod bless, Kathy.